Leo Dion (host): Welcome to
another episode, empower Apps.

I'm your host, Leo Dion.

Today I'm joined by Sean Allen.

Sean, thank you so much
for coming on the show.

Sean Allen (guest): No problem.

Thanks for having me, Leo.

Leo Dion (host): for people who aren't
on YouTube, go ahead and explain who you

Sean Allen (guest): are.


Like you said, my name is Sean Allen.

Most people probably know
me from my YouTube channel.

I've been doing it for
almost seven years now.

I, started making videos when
I was just learning myself.

I was probably about a year
and a half into my career,

and that was back in 2017.

So over those years, a lot of people
have, seen my videos learned from me.

So that's where they,
wouldn't know me from.

Leo Dion (host): today I wanted to
have you on and just give a refresh on

what people should do, and you seem to
be doing a lot of videos lately about

upgrading your career or going from
beginner to pro, and I think it would be

good to talk about that and maybe just
what are some common misconceptions that

you think people have when it comes.

Being a Swift developer,
being a pro Swift

Sean Allen (guest): developer.

Yeah, it's, I have an interesting
perspective on that just because

all I see from my audience
are typically beginners.

Now, I don't do a lot of like
super advanced videos and there I

get asked to do that all the time.

But the reason is there's, probably
10 x more beginners and there are

advanced people, so I have a good
perspective on what the beginners

are thinking and, saying, so
my number one misconception is,

Underestimate like how long it takes.

One of the most common questions
I get is, how do I become

a developer in two months?

And it's no, you're, you have
the wrong attitude already.

so they, underestimate, it's gonna
be a long, hard journey, right?

If it were easy, everyone would be
doing it, and we probably wouldn't

make any money because everyone
would do it and everyone could do it.

but yeah.

And they.

They're not willing to
do things more than once.

Like I think they have a
misconception on, I watched one

tutorial so I should know this.

And, once you develop, I had to
build a hundred table views before

I finally knew table views cold,
and all the iterations of them.

So yeah, I think that first one
is gonna be just setting the

expectations, that it's gonna take
a long time and you're gonna have

to practice this over and over.

, it's

Leo Dion (host): like
experiential learning.

Like you have to do it and do it several
times and find out all the facets of it.

oh, that's what a UI table view
data source does as opposed

to a UI table view delegate.

And this is because you, you do
it the first time and you, only

need to do the bare bones of it.

oh, just listing out items.

And then you realize, oh, there's
all this stuff about editing

and differential data source and
there's so much more when you

start getting into something.

. There's like different angles to
it that, yeah, like it seems like

you're trying to like, which is
your, what you're saying is like

two months isn't going to give you
all those angles on how no UI table

Sean Allen (guest): view works.

Because there's, phases to the
learning, like you alluded to.

There's, Hey, I know that I
have to type this code and it'll

make that appear on the screen.

that's like the phase one.

But then there's what even is
a delegate and a data source?

how did it tie in together?

And then the Ivan written
UI kit in a while.

So I remember my learning experience
is the, self road index path.

It took me probably until I built
50 table views to realize that, oh,

that's getting called every time a
new cell like appears on the screen.

And realizing what a delegate method
really was and how that's working.

So again, it's, one thing to know
what code to write and make it work.

It's a totally other thing to
fully understand what's actually

happening with your code.

And that going from point
A to point B right there,

that's what takes the, months.

And I think again, the
misconception is beginners will be.

I know what code to write,
so I know it, I'm good.

And it's no, You only know the surface.

It's like the iceberg.

There's a whole lot more going on.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah.

what are some other misconceptions
that you've run into from beginners?

Sean Allen (guest): it's not so
much a misconception, but a lot

of beginners do fall into what
I've called the tutorial trap.

I don't know if I've coined this
term, probably not, but I do notice

a lot of people have used it since
I, I first made a video about this

in like 2018, and now I hear it all
the time and I didn't hear it before.

So anyway, don't know.

I don't think I coined it, but
anyway, I hear it a lot tm.

But no, it's.

it's just one more tutorial,
let me learn this new thing.

And in, in programming, there's
always a new thing coming out, whether

it's like swift charts or AR kit
or even Swifty by itself, there's

always the hot new thing coming out
and you're just a forever learner.

When I know my learning skyrocketed
when I decided to make my own project

and there was no cookie cutter
recipe to follow, like I had an

idea, okay, let me make this idea.

And again, there wasn't a tutorial
for it, so I had to bang my head

against the wall, dig into the
documentation, and that's rough.

It's not fun.

, we talk about that programmers,
sometimes you feel like a genius.

Sometimes you feel like an idiot.

you're gonna feel like an idiot a
lot in that case, and it's not fun.

But that process is what will
just, your learning will skyrocket

exponentially when you do that.

So again, stop following
people's cookie tutorials and

try to build your own thing.

You'll learn a lot.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah, I
definitely agree with that.

I feel like tutorials are good
for filling in gaps when I'm

trying to learn something new.

But as far as like deep diving into
something, usually I'm the kind of

person who just wants to open up
Xcode and go at it and then take

a look at it later and be like,
okay, like I missed this whole part.

There was a easier way to do it that
was 10 times easier that Apple provides,

and I did it the stupid way, or.


And I think doing that, doing a
building, an actual project is it

gives you a real world exa real world
example because it's your own project.

But it gives you like, oh, now I
understand like how these pieces fit

together as opposed to just like your
500th to-do list or polka ducks or

whatever the heck you're building.


ain't using just a simple
UI table view because no.

No app is just a table view.

Like usually there's like a
navigator and you gotta tap

you and all this other pieces.

Sean Allen (guest): do you think and,
building your own, sorry, real quick

and building your own thing, just to
add on to that, requires you to dig

into the documentation and learn.

because like I said, there's no cookie
cutter tutorial for you to follow.


And I get asked a lot, do what's your
best tips on learning the documentation.

And I've thought a lot about this and
I always get asked to make a video.

I don't have a good answer for it
because my answer is basically like I

banged my head against it for two years
and as I, it was almost like two levers

being pulled as my knowledge grew,
the docs became easier to understand.


And then understanding the docs
also helped my knowledge grow.

So it's kinda two things
going back and forth.

So I don't really have good advice
aside from just start putting in the

time, putting in the work and know
that it's probably gonna take a,

while for you to fully understand.

But once you do, that's
what is this huge unlock.

So you don't have to follow
tutorials anymore and you can

build your own ideas, and learn
things by diving into the docs.

And then, like you said, when you
dive into the docks, you'll see,

hey, maybe Apple already did this for


Leo Dion (host): Yeah,
what else was I gonna say?

Oh, what you, talk, it seems like a
lot, like you talked about patience

when it comes to becoming a pro.

Do you think some people come away
with that, with kind of their.

Down and being like, I don't
know if I want to do this.

Or are people like, what's
the reaction to that?

I guess

Sean Allen (guest): Mixed and,
it probably comes down to the

personality type, because there's
some people that you tell them

like, Hey, this is gonna be hard.

And some people get excited by that.

Yes, I love a good challenge.

And then some people, like you said,
bow their head and I was like, oh man,

know if I want to do this and right.

This may sound harsh, like programming
that those roadblocks are never

gonna go away, If you're in this
business building this thing, you

have to love taking on the challenge,
banging your head against it for

a while and breaking through.

That's what the job is.

So I would almost say that if
hearing that, hey, you're gonna,

this is gonna be hard, you gotta
have patience, really deters you.

I might've just saved you
a lot of time, , right?

Going down this path when shouldn't

Leo Dion (host): I don't remember.

I keep citing this TED talk where the
guy explains how we sometimes when

we see things that we want to let's
say you want to be an actor, right?

We think of all the glamor and fun
parts of it, but we forget, like

you have to memorize the lines.

You sit , you have to be with the
grips and you have to have food

service table and be there for
12 hours waiting for your scene

just anything, like any project.

It is like you think of the fun parts.

, forget about the pain the hard
part about actually doing stuff.

and think like with programming,
I think that's a part of it is

like people have this idea either
if they're doing it for their

career, it's like the money, right?

B, they're like, oh, cool, I'll
build this really cool app,

but they don't think about to
deal with the App store review.

You have to deal with getting
Xcode build and upload it.

You have to deal with the fact
that you have these integrations

that you have to put together.

, you have to deal with edge cases of oh,
the network doesn't work in your app.

What are you gonna do then?

There's always these things.

Sean Allen (guest): Yeah, that's
what I just The edge cases.

That's what always gets me, some
of 'em you didn't even think about.

Like my app, just creator
view just got rejected.

And this is an obvious edge
case, but I didn't think of it.

It got rejected because when they
authenticated with Google, Their Google

account had never created a YouTube
channel, so I didn't like think of that

case where oh, they authenticate, but
they've never created a YouTube channel.

So the apple crashing at work,
I've got rejected for it.

So it's crazy the amount of edge
cases that even if you think

you've covered 'em all, you've
probably only covered like 10%.

So that is a.

For me, that is one of the most
demoralizing parts is oh man, I

got 50 more edge cases to cover.

And yeah, that's the not fun work.

But to, to what you were saying is
everyone thinking about the highs, I

think that's what makes the highs so
much better is when you go through

all slog of the rough work or when
you're banging your head against

the problem for two days and you
finally solve it and you have a

good solution like that feeling.

That's what keeps people
coming back to programming.

So you, I think you can't have those
high times happy times without the down.

It's the

Leo Dion (host): magic when
everything works and comes together.

Yeah, totally agree.

say, I was gonna say something I forgot.

That happens But yeah, I was
gonna ask, so when people wanna

learn, going back to that, when
people wanna become pros, they

necessarily, there's two kinds, right?

There's people who just want to
be really good at their skill,

and then there's people who want
to like do it for their career.

, what do you think is the difference
as far as motivation when it comes

to those kinds a, do you see those
two types of people in your audience

and B, like what are the different
ways, maybe they should address that,

Sean Allen (guest): if that makes sense?

Yeah, definitely.

I definitely see both types in
the audience because there's

certainly the type that they're
just laser focused on fang, like,

how do I get into a FANG company?

What do I do to get Fang company?

They're like, that's
all they care about.

And like they don't, I don't think they
realize that if you talk to a lot of

people, I'm not saying they're bad jobs.

They're not for everyone.

So yeah, so those people are laser
focused on money and then there

are the people that want to create
just because they love creating

or this is interest in them or
they want to perfect their craft.

Perfect is probably the wrong word.

They want to improve their craft, right?

They're they themselves as craftsmen.

Those love those people, right?

Because they're here just for pure
love of the game, so to speak.


And this is like a sweeping
statement, but I find that people

that only do it for money, it's fine,
but they typically peter out or.

Maybe they're not, they don't
enjoy the profession much.

yeah, you can definitely
make both work for sure.

I'm not, I don't want say
one's better than the other.

Both can absolutely work, but they're
both very different in my mind.

Leo Dion (host): back to the thing
with, oh gosh, I forgot it again.

It's one of those days.

, we're talking about career.

career, . How much of it though,
if you want to improve your

career, how much of it is really
becoming a better swift developer?

Because I feel like, don't know.

a plateau, right?

There's a ceiling at which, yes, you
can get, you can be that good, but

then other parts involved to having a
job email communication presentations

p parts of just programming
unit tests, DevOps, et cetera.

Do you.

Like, where would you put that
percentage, do you ever have to

explain that to developers of Hey, if
you wanna update your career, there's,

yeah, you can be a better swift
developer, but there's a point where

you need to like work on other skills

Sean Allen (guest): as well.

Yeah, I so my go-to percentage
is at least 50 50 tech

skills versus soft skills.

I'm a big believer the soft skills.

O of course.

It's very situationally dependent
and very like job dependent, right?

you are inventing self-driving
cars you need to be insanely

good technically, right?

If you're inventing the
next new thing, yeah.

Your technical skills
have to be off the charts.

But if you're building the run
of the Mill iOS app, you know

Basically what I would argue
is 80% of the apps out there.

yeah, would say it's at least 50
50 tech skills versus soft skills.

And me personally, I lean more
towards the soft skills because as

someone who like teaches this stuff,
I believe a lot of it can be taught.


Versus like your personality.

If you have horrible communication
skills or you're just a mean

person, you're not a good
teammate, all that stuff.

a lot harder to teach
because that's like people's

innate personalities versus.

The next new Swift topic.

So that's I like lean
more towards the soft

Leo Dion (host): skills.

And I think too, if you're, unless
you're like an indie developer I

would say even if you are an indie
developer, at some point you're

gonna have to work with other people.

. And either you're gonna have to
teach them your API you're gonna

have to talk to the cfo or somebody
who's gonna help you finance it.

Like you need to sell it, you need
to yeah, I totally agree with that

because I like, it's easy for us
because we communicate, right?

We're communicators and that's a
big part of what we do, but think

part of it is just like not only
gonna be talking to your technical

crowd, you're gonna have to talk
to people who are less technical.

will need sign off and accept
what you're working on.

Sean Allen (guest): a ex a good example
of that because this is more towards

the beginners because like I said, the
people that are all Fang, it's very

hard to get into FANG as your first
job unless you're a Stanford computer

science grad or something like that.

But Most - especially self top beginners
will probably start their career at

some smaller company, some startup.

And to your point, like that's where I
spent a lot of my time in San Francisco

where I was like the only iOS developer,
or was me and one other person.

But I was like the lead.

And like you said, I would
have to talk to, this would be

like a 6, 7, 8 person startup.

So I'm talking to, CEO
and other co-founders.

The communication of like they want
to build all these features and then

marketing is asking for features.

So as you developers out there
know, you have to be like, okay,

there's trade offs to all this.

only pushback, not only one
feature versus the other, but then

also within one feature, I call
it the spectrum of complexity.

like you can take one feature, make
an insanely robust, or there's a much

simpler version of that feature, right?

And there's a whole spectrum in between.

So like you said, communicating with
the people that are requesting these

features that, hey, if we build
this feature, To this complexity.

We can do that, but we're also
gonna have to give up this

other stuff and then basically
put the decision back on them.

is the trade.

We have limited resources,
we can't do it all.


So communicating that in
a way is a whole other art

form and a whole other skill.

And if you are bad at that,
in that scenario, you're

probably not gonna last long.

Whereas if you excel in that,
you're gonna make yourself just

an invaluable member of that team.


Leo Dion (host): you think yeah.

say Totally.

I think to, in, in communicating
within your team as well, like in your

development team is super helpful.

And being able to like, take
that senior position time comes.

Sean Allen (guest): Or I think
to, to that point is I believe if

you don't have those communication
skills, it'll be very hard to even

make it to that senior position.


The more senior you get.


That's becomes way more important.

Leo Dion (host): I'm curious
about the whole FANG thing.

Do you ever have people who come
back to you and you're like,

yeah that was not for me, or,

Sean Allen (guest): just on Twitter and
living in San Francisco and I've lived

in San Francisco from 2014 to 2019.

So a lot of friends that I never worked
at Fang personally, so I can't speak

from personal experience, lot of people
that work there and it's just the.

lifestyle, and maybe I'm using too much
of a personal thing, because in downtown

San Francisco, a lot of 'em had the
bus down to Facebook, more down south.

, so just mountain view.

Super, super long days and
you don't feel like you're

contributing all that much.

You're, you're one of 5,000 developers,
working on a very narrow thing.

So I guess when it comes to fulfillment,
the small startups are doing your own.

Dwarf Fang, but also Fang comes
with a lot of perks and benefits.

Like I said, I'm not saying
one is better than the other.

I think it's a personal thing.


I think some people like that structure
and being one of a thousand, some people

like myself, I liked having impact.

Seeing my work in the app and seeing
the customer's reaction to it.

if didn't have that, like I,
I wouldn't enjoy the work.

But again, I think it's a
personal Totally, totally

Leo Dion (host): understand.


And unfortunately, as we found out the
last few months, there's no guarantee

of future employment we've seen yeah.


It's been rough Speaking of that,
what do you think if you are.

think I know where the answer to this
question is gonna be, but what do you

think is the best way to gain experience
in your career if you want to really

like, upgrade your career and like deep

Sean Allen (guest): dive?

think it depends on your goals.

Back the whole, let's just
do the fang versus startup.


. So if Fang your goal, and you're, and
again, I'm assuming self-learner, right?

They learn on YouTube.

because again, if you go to the typical
college path where you know you're

getting a CS degree doing internships
along the way, that's more of the

path to the fang big company world.

it comes to, getting your first job
or getting a job at a startup to level

up your career, I always recommend
building small portfolio projects.

I get a lot of people that ask,
oh, what should my resume say?

What should my resume say?

And I believe, especially in the small
startup plan, cause I've hired for a few

small startups, show me what you can do.

I don't care what black and white
words you have on your resume, right?

I wanna see an app you've built.

I want to touch it,
I wanna play with it.

And then I wanna talk to you
about that and talk to you about

why you did certain things.

I wanna hear your decision
making and all that.


Personal view on it.

But yeah, I always recommend to
people building a bunch of different

smaller portfolio projects.

That's another misconception is some
people think they need to build a

full featured app on the app store.

That is one path, but I think
building, 8, 9, small, not on

the app store, play with map kit,
play with AR kit, because there's.

Our profession, you're constantly
learning a new framework.

You're constantly having
to implement this.

So if you can showcase that,
you can quickly learn a bunch

of different iOS frameworks.

think that's super valuable,
especially to a small startup.

Again, one last disclaimer.

Hiring practices, obviously
completely two different planets

when you're talking fang in small
startups, and I think people

try to bundle them all together.

They're a thousand percent different.

Leo Dion (host): also just
have companies that are not.

California, right?

That are medium size, small
or small companies that

aren't necessarily startups.

from the Midwest, I'm in the Midwest.

worked at a small company.

it's to find necessarily iOS
focused stuff here, but there's

always the occasional stuff and
I that's, that's better than

nothing as far as opportunity.

And I think, like to me, small company,
you really deep dive, you learn a lot

of the pieces of what it takes to build.

an app and don't just mean an app, but
like a company too that maybe is built

around an app or app supports it.

I think

Sean Allen (guest): I think, go ahead.

I was gonna say, I think that's
an interesting perspective.

Because my whole career was
in San Francisco before I went

India and did my own thing.

So I only know the two extremes.

The bang or small startup.

So you sound like you have a good
insight into the middle ground.

So I think that might be valuable
too, to let some people know.

So I guess what, what is hiring
developers like in that middle ground?

Leo Dion (host): It, I think
part of it is I'm in a university

town, so there's obviously a
lot of people who are graduates.

A funnel who . Yeah.

There's a funnel here.

So that's always been helpful,
but I think like to me, like I'm

more interested in experience.

of which, I've been through trying
to look for helpers as you might

have heard with some of my work
and I mostly look for contractors.

So for me it's do I
want to see like show.

Resume is like a very
early starting point.

And then it like, I agree completely
portfolio and like references because

and talking to the person too and
getting oh, explain to me how this

worked or what do you like about this?

Or, because it's more are
you gonna be a good fit?

Do you know the APIs I'm working
with because I have very specific

thing that I need help with.

like to me is how it's worked
for me as far as like contractor

getting help and things like that.


I don't know if that answered your
question, but that's definitely No,

Sean Allen (guest): I just
felt like me, for me, yeah.

I just it's a good perspective
because again, we, a lot of times

people talk about the two extremes,
the small startup or the fang, but

like you said, there was a whole.

Huge swath of companies that
are in that middle ground.

Vast majority, right?

Leo Dion (host): Yeah.


And again, there's, there is
startups outside of California.

There's not, they're not all there.

But yeah, so I think for me, I'm, I love
working for small companies and startups

and working on my own, obviously.

So that's in the same boat of being a
little bit biased, but let's network.

. . So I noticed you talked a bit about
networking on your video course a lot

has changed in the last three years,
at least in the last four months.

what, I guess kinda review what
you said a few years ago and

then maybe what has changed in

Sean Allen (guest): that time?

Yeah prior to Covid,
again, I was preaching.

In-person meetups a lot.

Again, I was in San Francisco,
so that's, there's a meetup

every night somewhere.

That's also what I would've preached
is maybe not necessarily San Francisco,

but if you were trying to get into tech,
try to find the closest tech hub to

you, like in the United States, there's,
Seattle, Austin, New York there's

Boston, Raleigh, research Triangle.

There's a couple different
little pockets, and I would've

recommended trying to go there.

Like you said, COVID changed all that.

So much of it has shifted online.

My biggest regret in my career,
and I still stand by this, and I

know this will be a controversial
take nowadays, was not getting

involved on Twitter early.

So again, now we're
talking 2016, 2017, right?

But I waited two years to really
get on Twitter and get involved.

And this is why I appreciate nonstop,
because get in there, you get

access to all kinds of developers,
at all kinds of companies, not

only just to help you get a job.

So many people are putting out what
they're learning, what they're building.

because a, a big thing nowadays
is the build in public.

So I do it too.

I'm building a feature, I share
screenshots of it along the way.

So you get to see what
people are working on.

It's just people are putting out
so much stuff I would definitely

recommend getting on Twitter.

I didn't say Mastodon.

I'll address that real quick.

I'm sure.

I'm sure.

Mastodon is an amazing space for
just the existing iOS develop.

And I'm sure it's great.

I haven't joined yet because my
world typically deals beginner, the

person just getting into this world.

And I believe those people
are entering, through Twitter.

They're not starting with Mastodon.

percentage of them will
find their way to Mastodon.

So I feel like my people, the
people I'm trying to help, if I just

stayed in Mastodon, because I was
mad at Elon, like I would be like

gate keeping so many beginners.

And how I feel about it.

That's why I haven't gone that
route and I'm not knocking it.

Like I said, I'm sure it's an amazing.

Peaceful place . But people
I'm trying to reach and

help, they're not there yet.

They may make their way there,
but they start on Twitter.

So yeah, that's why, that's my
recommendation for the new people.

Start on Twitter, Hey, explore Macon.

If you like it, stay there.

But I just fully believe that Twitter's
still gonna be top of funnel for new

people coming into the community.


Leo Dion (host): a hundred percent.

And address some, I, But I also want
to jump back and talk about local

networking because it's funny you
mentioned that, I've mentioned this

before on my videos, that, at the
end of 29, I felt like where I am

locally local networking had run dry.

just was like, I'm done.

This is not worth my time.

And I pretty much focused all online.

This is the end of 2019, by the
way, like totally coincidentally.


and like I had done
everything, I had done meetups.

I used to do a cocoa heads at the
local Apple store I would five, six

people and obviously it's the size
of the town where it's focused.

I did a little a little bit in
the, some of the bigger metro areas

in Michigan, but for me it was
just this is not worth it for me.

Like driving an hour, setting up a
meetup, getting a H, like getting a

speaker, and like I, I had focused
so much just shifted everything

over to Twitter at that point.

And I've, it's been great.

that's been great.

Slack also has been really good as far
as networking and things like that.

just circling back, like
as far as, first of all, I

wanted to ask do anything?

Meet up.

at all related.

Post co.

Post covid.

Post covid?

Sean Allen (guest): No, because I, I
moved to North Carolina decided I, okay.

I, like you said coincidentally moved
before Covid, before San Francisco

became a ghost town . Just because
when I decided to do my YouTube

channel full-time, . I was I don't
need to be living in downtown San

Francisco paying this insane rent.

to move to another city that's
a little more, more reasonable.


Leo Dion (host): timing
too, as far as yours.

Sean Allen (guest): Decision, luck.

like six months in advance,
but it was pure luck.


But no, so I've tried, I put out a
tweet and also like covid when I first

got here in Charlotte, North Carolina
where I'm I tried putting on a tweaks.

I know like Bank of America's
here, and I know there's a lot of

Bank of America developers here.

But it was also during covid and it
was like, as things were just opening

up, so it was like hard find a spot.

And then I got four people that
responded, you were saying.

was like, oh.

So petered out on trying
to do an in-person meetup.

just because like I said, I just.

Twitter, you're talking
about ROI on your time.

Yeah, just being on
Twitter is way, way more,

Leo Dion (host): Sean, like this
is a realization I came up with.

It's reach so many more people
with this podcast it's probably a

thousand times more for you, but
like you reach so many more people

on YouTube or podcast, or even
Twitter than you ever do in a meetup.

Like to me it's like, why
would I present in a meet.

When there's five people there.

When I could give a podcast
where there's like hundreds or

thousands of people listening.


It's just like ROI
on, that's ridiculous.

It's not even worth it.

So as far as like Mastodon
, you hit it on the nose.

I think Mastodon is really good for
hitting like existing experienced

developers, which to me is
sometimes that is worth it to me.

gone on Mastodon, listen to the end
of the show, you'll hear my plug.

But makes sense for me in that
regard because there's like

existing developers, I wanna reach
more of the experienced audience.

And like with you though, yeah, you've
hit the, you've hit it on the nose

like, All the beginners, all the
new people are gonna be on Twitter.

It just, it is people feel
intimidated by mask on still.

I think it's not as bad as it
used to be as far as getting

started and picking your server.


But think that's exactly it.

It's like when you new people are
gonna be on Twitter it far as for the

next two or three years until Yeah.


It shuts down because, AOL
buys them, or Yahoo or whoever.

. agree completely.

What what other networks have you found?

I'm just curious.

I talked a bit about TikTok.

I've killed TikTok.

, it just wasn't worth it for me.

YouTube shorts are just a lot better.

Sean Allen (guest): Yeah.

There's also the potential ban coming.

Like I would feel was building a brand
on TikTok right now, I'd be nervous.

I'm not saying it's going to get
banned, but there's that looming

cloud don't know, And that's

Leo Dion (host): fair enough.

around I mentioned this in my
video, my end of the year video

was like, at the end of the year,
I pretty much was like, okay,

let's, like Twitter has its issues.

Let's see what else is out there.

I found LinkedIn to be half decent.

As far as the audience, I don't
know about you I, think LinkedIn

obviously is more career based
and it's yeah, technical.

It gets a bit technical, but it's also
a bit like it's bit more like managers

and seat level folks, which can be Yeah.

Worth it.

What other networks have
you found useful to you?

Sean Allen (guest): Yes, useful to me.

So probably a couple years ago
I actually cut everything out.

I was doing all, I was doing LinkedIn,
I was I Instagram I was doing, yeah.

It was just, it's a lot for one
person to try to manage five platforms

and post consistently and post.

Native to that platform, not just
repost everything, which I guess now

on LinkedIn and Instagram, all you're
seeing is people screenshotting their

tweets and making it a carousel.

I it's all happening again.

But was too much and I found that I
was just posting like bare minimum

and I was like, if I'm not gonna
do these platforms right, I'm just,

again, back to ROI in your time.

Like I'm just not doing a real,
so that back then I decided to

focus on YouTube and Twitter and
those are just my two focuses.

seen other people succeed.

Like I've seen know you've had
Mikayla on your podcast before.

She does well on Instagram
Brittany of Brit code.

She does well on Instagram.

IVAs Mays, I'm probably
mispronouncing his last name.

So I've seen a lot of developers
very well on Instagram and parlay

those audiences into YouTube
channel or something else.

. So I don't have any
experience with LinkedIn.

I don't, I deleted my LinkedIn account
because it became just recruiter Spam.


like, all I do is get recruiter spam.

I'm not even on here.

Why do I even.

Yeah can't really speak to that, but,

Leo Dion (host): let's go back and
talk about that beginner developer.

you think LinkedIn might be a
better fit for some of those people

if they're looking for a job?

Sean Allen (guest): Yeah think
what your last little bit right

there I think is differentiator.

What are you looking for if
you're looking for a job?


Yeah, probably LinkedIn and getting,
and by the way, it's not just, I

wanna address this going back to
Twitter as well, because we've

said get on these platforms, but
I wanna give actionable advice.

It's okay, cool.

I'm on Twitter now, what?

wanna give actionable advice on
what to do when you're on there.

Like I said, I can't speak to LinkedIn
because not on there, but Twitter,

is I, follow some of the big names
just because those are probably

gonna be the ones that you know.

And then look at who they're following.

Go through there, click on the
bios, see what company they're at.

Follow 'em if you want.

And then slowly but surely you're
gonna build up your following list.

And then don't be afraid to
interact yes, get in there.

Especially when people are sharing
their content creators, sharing

their podcast, sharing their
video, sharing their work, get.

Great video, loved it, or
provide constructive criticisms.

It doesn't have to be sunshine
or rainbows all the time.

Don't be mean, free to
provide a little criticism.

get in there, interact
like it, retweet it.

And I say this not for like
selfish reasons cause I want

people to retweet my stuff.

I'm saying it because.

being on the other side of
that, I know the people that

are constantly interacting
with my stuff, liking my stuff.



And you were talking about building
a network and it's a two-way street.

Building a network with an existing
developer isn't, let me just from

them, it's a give, give and take.

You help them spread their content.

if they're, even if they're not a
content creator, say they're just

building a public and they're, showing
a screenshot of what they're building.

Comment on it.

Give your thoughts, give your advice.


It's a conversation, right?



And the more you interact, and also back
to expectations we talked about in the.

Networking on Twitter and
building a network is gonna

take you a year or two, right?

You're not gonna interact on Twitter
for a week and then all of a sudden have

this amazing Twitter network, right?

It's over the long term, you're
solely gonna build that up.

And then the reason I mentioned like
networking with I guess maybe more

well known developers is because when
it comes time, I've had people that.

Always interact my stuff.

And when it comes time for them to
like, Hey, I'm looking for a job.

Anybody knows something, I'm
always retweeting it because I

wanna repay the favor of them
liking, interacting with my stuff.

Like I said, the networking is a
two-way street and it takes a long time.

Those are the only two things I wanna
leave people with the expectations.

And I think,

Leo Dion (host): I think
interaction is the big part.

. I'll even say like a YouTube comment,
like I don't know how bad it is for

you, but for me it's not that bad.

Like I don't get a lot of garbage
as far as my YouTube comments,

but like a YouTube comment, a
LinkedIn reply, a Twitter reply.

You do a great job too with
asking questions on Twitter, like

reply to those and maybe not just
fill out the poll book reply.


Post que post questions.

It's okay to ask questions on Twitter.

Technical questions.

I do it too, and I think.

Like you said, it's a conversation
and like you, like I said, when

they post that Twitter, that tweet
that's Hey, I'm looking for you'll

never remember that person because
they reply to you and they like your

videos and like your stuff on Twitter.

So yeah, I totally agree.


Sean Allen (guest): 100%.

Yeah, you do that.

Yeah, you do that enough times.

It won't just be like
one person retweeting.

It'll be, oh, this person's been
super active in the community.

Super engaging.


You'll get multiple people
retweeting and the word spreads and.

Yeah, it's just, I don't want to,
I also don't want to paint the

picture of you're doing this for,
so you can get a retweet on your

job post so you can get a job.

You don't do this with
an end goal in mind.

You do this with I'm going to
build a bunch of goodwill in the

community and make legitimate
friends or at least acquaintances.

And then one day we're gonna
be able to help each other out.

Like I, I always say, especially to
the people, just learning network with

other people that are just learning too.

because you're gonna build that
relationship again over years.

And then 2, 3, 4, 5 years
from now, who knows?

That person may be working at
Apple, that person may be working

at some other company you wanna
work at, or they may be looking

to a co-founder for their company.

You grow up with these
people, if you will.

So if you've built that
relationship that whole time,

like it's just, it's unforeseen
benefits that are gonna happen.

You don't, I don't, I can't tell
you what's gonna happen, but

good things are probably gonna.

Leo Dion (host): It's, yeah.

That's, so that's so
many things in life.

It's like you build the relationship
for the relationship and then there's

benefits that might come from that.


But don't go into it being
like, Hey, I need this job.

Could you get me this job?

Thank you.

And then that's your tweet.

And it's like you never
hear from 'em again.


That's not gonna work.

And yeah, you have to invest in it.

It's also too I don't know where
I've heard this, but a lot of success

comes from luck and That's true.

Like part of it is you need to keep
playing the game in order to improve

your chances, because that's the
only way you'll ever get lucky.

Look has to happen.

You have to try and then you can.

Be successful at it.

Sean Allen (guest): Yeah.

If you're not out there, luck's not just
gonna come to you and fall in your lap.

You gotta be out there like moving
and shaking, stirring things up, and

then luck just magically happens,

Leo Dion (host): Exactly.


Before we close out, I wanted to get
more of your opinion on Mastodon so you.

Have you created a Mastodon account?

You said no, you didn't, right?


Sean Allen (guest): Because
little context Mastodon tried

to happen in like 20 18, 20 19.

I can't remember.

Do you remember when that happened?

I Twitter did something.

I can't remember.


Everyone's I'm gonna
Mastodon I'm gonna mastodon.

And then two weeks
later, everyone's back.

No one did anything.

So I was taking the wait
and see approach this time.

Obviously it looks like it's sticking
around this time, but I was taking

the wait and see cause I was like,
we've, I've seen this movie before.

Let's see how it plays out.

So it looks like it's sticking.

I still don't know about
the long term of it.

Again it's probably gonna be
great as that little iOS developer

walled garden because I've, I
use Twitter for so much, right?

For my other hobbies, like startup and
tech, YouTube investing, sports, iOS

development, iOS dev, my, I've used
Twitter lists, so my iOS dev list.

Is the only one that
even mentioned Mastodon.

None of the other quote unquote
normal people even mentioned Mastodon.

So that's why I don't think it's
going to get mass adoption and why

I still think it's gonna be top of
funnel for the new iOS developers, the

new people in the iOS Dev community.

. And that's why I wish.

Like I keep talking about this because
I know a lot of developers, said F Elon.

I'm never posting on Twitter.

And I think again, it's a
little bit of gatekeeping.

Like I, because the new people
come in, I feel like you're

holding your content back.

All your, the stuff you
share that's so valuable.

You have very valuable stuff and
these new developers, Because

again, only a small percentage of
them I believe are gonna actually

make it to Mastodon to see it.

So I feel like there's a huge
void now of content on Twitter

that's just the new people aren't
getting, and I'm trying to fill

that void, but I'm only one person.

There's still a lot of
people putting out stuff.

I don't wanna make it seem they
come into the last one standing.

But I do know a lot of
people that I used to follow

that posted awesome stuff.

don't post anymore, and it's just gone.

I think it,

Leo Dion (host): excuse me.

I think it depends on their audience.

If they're like you and they have,
they're selling a course for a book,

like I definitely have seen them stay
on Twitter if they're somebody post

like who builds India apps that I tend
to see like that where it's like more.


Hey, cool, this API helped me do this.

Then I see that more of
those people being willing

to cut off ties with Twitter.

Yeah, more tech, more highly
technically people too who are just

like, like I've seen Apple people.


Stop posting to Twitter.

Sean Allen (guest): But I
think the build building

public people in the indie.

our that's honestly, that's what I
meant by the most valuable, because to

me that's inspir, that's inspirational
inspiration to the new developers.


Look at what this person's building
and they're sharing with their

building, and I can do that.

And a lot of times it's,
developers of well-known apps.


So they can make the connection of
seeing the developer of this app that

they may know and seeing the building.

I just think there's a lot of
inspirational stuff that got lost.

And again they have their beliefs.

That's fine.

I just I wish the new people
coming in could see that.


Leo Dion (host): still see it.

. Yeah.

Yeah, I know what you mean.


Way to end on, it's such a downer note.

Thanks Sean.

Sean Allen (guest): Yeah we, I mean
we can dabble in the, in this, the

quick stay after date on Swift,
or again, I don't know about this

Swift UI stuff with on the Mac
app with built in creator view.

Or we can end on downer.


Leo Dion (host): Let's
talk about your app.

You're building an.

Let's talk about this app that you're

Sean Allen (guest): building.


What's it called?

So it's called Creator View.

It's meant for basically built
it for myself, which is hopefully

how all the best products start

Basically my running my YouTube
channel in my business, I had a

giant spreadsheet and had about 15
different notes in my notes app,

and I decided to combine all that.

Into a native app on the iPhone,
on the iPad, and on the Mac.

Because, thinking about my business,
I'm, it doesn't matter where I'm at,

I always get ideas and I wanna be able
to, manage my business from forever.

But the interesting thing for
the developers listening, because

I highly doubt there's a lot of
YouTubers listening, is it is a

fully swift UI app and it's on all
platforms, iPhone, iPad, and Mac.

And that's been an interesting
journey just doing that because

I had never built a Mac app.

And I don't know, AppKit so
basically it's Swift UI from the

start and there's a lot of trade
offs that, that go with that.

, main, mainly it's getting better now,
but when I first built the app, the

Mac app was basically, iPad screens
on a Mac, and you could tell it was

big, chunky buttons, big things.

And this

Leo Dion (host): is not
Catalyst, this is like totally

Sean Allen (guest):
swift, straight Swifty.

It looked like an iPad app.



Still looked like an iPad app
because just, if you've ever

built a Mac app, even just Mac
button, it's totally different.

Like all your Swifty buttons.

Will look horrible if you just
transfer 'em over to the Mac

without doing something different.

And there's even a lot of little
stuff that you still gotta use, like

instead of, UI color and s color.

I know that's app kit and UI kit, but
some of the semantic colors secondary

system background and stuff like that,
those are still technically like UI kit.

But anyway.

It's been interesting in architecture
as well because it's been a good

practice in separation of concerns,
meaning if I have UI on an iPhone,

which is drastically different than
UI on an iPad, which is drastically

different than the UI on a Mac.

They're all, like the dashboard
screen has one like model, right?

For dashboard and all
the screens doing that.

So the exercise in being
like, okay, what can I share?

What can I not share?

And that's a constantly
evolving process that's been

like super interesting and fun.

I remember when I first built
the Mac app, I was surprised how,

I'm gonna put it in quotes, easy.

It was, I was expecting a nightmare
and it it ended up not being too bad.

So I guess what I might leave you
with is if you do have an iPad and

an iPhone app, because I know most
developers don't develop for Mac.

I don't know if you think
your audience can use it, I

would give them back a try.

It's not that.

Leo Dion (host): what?

Yeah, we did a really good
episode with tr so definitely

check that out in her book.

. Did you have to do any app kit,
like ns, view, representable,

Sean Allen (guest): or View Control?

No, the only thing that I
had to do a representative

for is the the mail sheet.

So in in my info in the feedback,
send me feedback, right?

Cause there's no Native Swift
UI thing to pop up the native.

Email sheet.


That is the only, and I don't wanna I'm
not against using UI Kit, by the way.

I don't wanna make it sound
like, or AppKit you mean?

Or AppKit or, yeah.

Either one.


However, I am, I'm not against it,
but I'm using it as a last resort.

So I, and I know this is
blasphemy to a lot of people, I

am basically taking what Swiss UI
gives me because what's with you.

I gives me, because a also the design
principle for the app is I want it

to feel like a native Apple app.

, which helps because I can use
a lot of the built-in default

stuff, which also helps.

Build on all the platforms.

A lot of people's problem with Swift
UI when they say Swift UI sucks, is

not ready yet, is they try to, I,
this is the phrase I use, they try to

bend Swift UI to their will instead
of bending to Swift, your eyes will,

which I know sounds blasphemous, where
you're like, oh, I, I need to change my

feature because Swift UI can't handle.

It's fine, but if you just play
nicely with Swift UI and maybe

change your feature or your UI like
a little bit so it works well with

Swift ui, you might not get that
perfect animation or exact transition

you want, but you'll still get
something that looks great and works.

I just, I think the developer gains
on working with Swift ui, if you

work with it and not fight it, I
think far exceed the downsides of

having to adjust your feature, not
getting maybe like exactly what.

Leo Dion (host): So I'll just say my
one big complaint with that is I feel

like Swift UI does not make it easy.

To design a good Mac OS app?

I feel like the native could to me
Swift ui, like I'm in the same mode.

I'm building a Swift UI Mac app, and
what I've found is like the things

I wanted to look like an actual
Mac app, I feel like they don't

look like an actual Mac app if I
don't fight Swift UI a little bit.

And that's more of a complaint of the
design, I guess not, maybe not the

design, but so much like the the way.

Apple has not like really made the
Swift UI controls on the Mac look

like the actual Swift UI controls.

I'm like, oh, this is how really
Good Mac app does it, and then

you do it in Swift ui and it looks
like a iOS app that had been poured

Sean Allen (guest): over that.

Yeah, I, that's my biggest

Leo Dion (host): complaint.

I agree though, a hundred percent.

If you're building, don't
fight Swift ui, but the, but

I feel like if I did it in.

and I don't think it's worth
it, but if I did an advocate,

I think I would look nicer.

Sean Allen (guest): Unfortunately
it's funny, I remember when they first

announced Swift ui, I was actually
like live streaming the announcement

and I tweeted out, I was like,
swift ui, I'm skeptical because like

at the time, if you remember when
Swift five first came out, everyone

was just like glowing about it.


How awesome it was.

And I was like one of the only
people to be like I don't know.

I love Swift UI by the way.

I'm not, I'm still not there.

But the main reason I was skeptical
cause I was like, Yeah, if you

just do a basic list or a, again,
all the default builtin forms.

, all the built-in stuff.

I was like, yeah, it works great.

And I was like, all the apps
are gonna look the same.

That's what, that was my thinking,
like the day it was announced, I was

like yeah, everyone's gonna use that.

It's, that was the big

Leo Dion (host): complaint about
Catalyst too, was like, oh, if you're

just gonna build an iOS app and pour
it to the Mac, it's not gonna look

as great as a fully Native Mac app.


Sean Allen (guest): exactly.

So I've come around to, again, back
to UIKit and Swift UI just being

a tool like use, use it properly.

Now my beliefs are because the app,
I am building creator view, I do

want it to look like an Apple app.

So I love using all the
default built-in stuff.

I want it to feel very native.

But if you wanna build one of those like
whimsical, fun, unique ui, maybe you are

better off sticking with UI kit because
then you do have all the flexibility.

But if you are cool it looking
like an Apple app, Vince, with

your UIs, probably the better way.

And I

Leo Dion (host): think
there's a lot there.

The, to me, the gains of Swift
UI and the architecture patterns

and the whole way you manage.

two way binding, I think way
outweigh the losses you get on

creating cool animations, and
especially in the long term.

Because what ends up happening
is in two or three years, like

Apple will add the stuff like
we know Swift UI is the future.

So why would I want to build an app?

Just using UI kit only or only
AppKit and then be screwed in two

or three years because there's a ton
of cool stuff I can do in Swift ui.

Sean Allen (guest): I think I some
people are saying it, but I think this

gets lost a lot, is that iOS development
or just developing for Apple platforms

is only getting harder and harder.

How back in the day there
was, what, two screen sizes?

Now there's eight different screen
sizes for iPhone and iPad, and now

we're gonna get a headset coming soon.

So like you said, the
gains on being able.

You know the, with the gain Swift
UI gives you, even if you used Apple

stuff, far outweigh trying to write
everything custom for all the platforms.

You're just biting off so much work
when you tried to do it that way

and it's is all that worth it or
can you just not fight Swift ui?

Go with Apple stuff.

And be more productive, your team
on all the platforms, because

there's so many things that like
take into account now with iOS

Leo Dion (host): development.



Sean, thank you so much
for coming on the show.

This has been a fantastic conversation.

Glad to finally get you on.

Where can people find you online?

Sean Allen (guest): Yeah, so
youtube.com/@SeanAllen, or on Twitter.

Sean Allen at Sean Allen underscore dev.


Leo Dion (host): Thank
you again for coming up.

This was really fun.



I'll do it again.

Hopefully people can find
me on Twitter at leogdion.

On Mastodon leogdion@c.im.

If you're watching this on
YouTube, please and subscribe.

I'd really appreciate it, and
if you're listening to this on a

podcast player, Gimme a review.

And if there's anything you wanna
listen to or have on the show to talk

about a specific topic reach out to me.

Like we said, please reply.

You can DM me, my dms are open.

It's a great way to network.

Thank you.

And that's it.

And we'll talk to you in a couple weeks.

Talk to you later, everybody.


Alright, everybody.

Creators and Guests

Leo Dion
Leo Dion
Swift developer for Apple devices and more; Founder of BrightDigit; husband and father of 6 adorable kids
Sean Allen
Sean Allen
I create content to help iOS developers level up their skills. Learn iOS Dev - https://t.co/deQ3SY7LW3. Building @CreatorViewApp.

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