EAS-199
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WWDC Announcements
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Leo Dion (host): Hey folks, WWDC 2025 is just around the corner and I'll be in the Cupertino area again. I've got a jam packed schedule planned for WWDC ~week throughout the ~week. You'll find me out one more thing or community kit, two of the best community events that are happening that week. But I especially wanna let you know that on Monday, June 9th at 4:00 PM Pacific, I'll be recording a very special milestone episode.

We're hitting our 200th episode of Empower Apps at Community Kit. We'll be talking about everything announced at the keynote and the State of the Union, and I may have a very special guest. Be sure to sign up as space is limited. The link is provided in our show notes. I will be also hosting panels and helping folks with server side swift questions at one more thing and even doing a live demo of Bushel at the CommunityKit Indie Fair on Wednesday.

Speaking of bushel, version 2.1 is out and to celebrate both the new release and WWDC, I'll be offering a 50% off annual subscriptions for new customers till the end of [00:01:00] WWDC Week. So definitely take advantage of this as soon as you can. ~With a new Mac os Betas dropping soon. ~There's never been a better time to streamline your workflow with Bushel Links to all these events and more will be in the show notes below.

Thank you for joining me and I hope you enjoy today's episode with Peter.

Welcome to another episode of Empower Apps. I'm your host, Leo Dion. Today I am joined by Peter Witham. Once again, Peter, thank you for making your 400th appearance on the show.

Peter Witham (guest): And I only look a day over 38.

Leo Dion (host): This true. For people who don't, listen to this podcast, I'll let you introduce yourself.

Peter Witham (guest): thank you Leo ~for~ having me back again. Always look forward to this and chatting with you. Yeah, my name's Peter Winham. I am ~a ~primarily an iOS developer, although ~I'm a, ~I also work with Android and React native, but Swift is my thing 'cause I have the Compile Swift, podcast is what I'm primarily known for.

[00:02:00] Shout out to my co-host on that, Jeff. So yeah, that's probably where folks have heard my, weird Texas accent before.

Leo Dion (host): Texas accent. I like it. For people who, are subscribed to the newsletter and follow me on social, I will be in California once again for WWDC. There's a bunch of events going on, including leading a panel and giving a talk and talking about Bushel. But I will be recording a special 200th episode live from Community Kit.

You'll definitely want to check that out since ~I won't be~ Peter won't be available. I figure now's as good of a time as ever to go over the year and what we're thinking when it comes to WWDC. I will also post a link ~to the, ~to all the stuff so you can register there as well.

Apple Intellegence
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Leo Dion (host): It's been a heck of a year, like in the Apple space, where do we begin?

Not all good stuff and I feel like I went over this in my year review of stuff that I'm, I was worried about and it [00:03:00] feels like it all it's all come to a head. Yeah. What's your thoughts about it?

Peter Witham (guest): Doesn't ~it? ~It has been a very up and down year, I think ~since. ~Since the last, dub dc right? So many things we could cover in both directions. I guess the one that stands out the most and, we'll get into the topics, but, the fouled promises maybe of AI that never really happened yet.

And ~the, and, ~things like this, but I feel like ~it, it's been a, ~it's not been one of the best years for Apple and not necessarily all their fault as we'll probably get into. But yeah, it's been a tough one.

Leo Dion (host): Are you surprised by the AI stuff

Peter Witham (guest): I am.

Leo Dion (host): The way Gruber described it, it's like they never really demoed anything. Is it that surprising or what part of you is shocked,

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah. I think, I'm always one of those people who, hey, whoever the company is, but especially Apple, [00:04:00] don't give it to us until it's ready. And so therefore, if they don't feel it's ready, ~yeah. ~It's better to suffer the brief beating that you get from saying something will be here and then putting it all over the website and then, pulling it back again.

And I do feel that folks have been a little unfair, ~in the, yeah. ~They did give us something, right? Not everything that it should have been. And, hey, is that better than giving us something that was a complete disaster? There's that side that says. Siri was never that great to begin with.

Could it really have been any worse? ~But~ I'll take what I've got. I have been using some of the stuff on the Mac, for example. ~The,~

Leo Dion (host): Like what?

Peter Witham (guest): services have been pretty good. Especially for folks like ourselves where it's okay, gimme a quick summary of this document for podcast notes and things like that, i'm not expecting miracles and I feel it was okay, but I think it was the [00:05:00] fact that it was really sold to us as, Hey, this is really gonna bring your iPhone, your watch, those other platforms to life in a whole new way. And it didn't,

Leo Dion (host): the iPhone 16, that was the selling

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah. ~And I,~

Leo Dion (host): I had the clip of, Snoop and Jason Mahomes trying to sell you an iPhone 16 with ai. Yeah, like they really pushed it.

Peter Witham (guest): And you're right. I don't think, I don't think that those folks out there, who are putting these, lawsuits together about, Hey, I bought this because of this and it didn't happen. It's we all know Apple's got a lot of lawyers. Good luck with that.

Because there is that thing of they made you want to have it, but they didn't force you to get it. They just made you want it, which is what Apple is excellent at.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah. ~Yeah, ~it seems like it's a big hurdle for them to get where every, I like, I don't know what tools you use, but I've been using Claude and cursor quite a [00:06:00] bit and they're a great fit. I don't know how Apple is gonna be able to compete with that, it almost feels like too late in a lot of ways, for them to get into that space.

Peter Witham (guest): it

Leo Dion (host): Now there's rumors that they're gonna provide SDKs for some models, but I dunno, I'm we'll see. Also, will we get it in the version zero or will we have to wait till version two and yada. ~You know how this~

Peter Witham (guest): ~Yeah. ~Yeah. We never get anything in version zero. Version zero is just the, ~it's like the ~police holder for the installer. But I agree with you. Apple. Has to get it right next time is what it comes down to in simple terms. And it's interesting because you mentioned about the SDKs.

I was thinking about this the other day, is this Apple's way of saying, we couldn't deliver so far on the promise, but if we open it up, we're sharing that responsibility with the developers, right? Maybe you can do it better than [00:07:00] we can, which I feel like is a smart thing ~and~

Leo Dion (host): That's what they should do at this point,

Peter Witham (guest): ~yeah.~

'cause I'm with you. I don't think they'll cash up with everybody else. They certainly won't, go speed ahead of everybody. Not now, but the best they can hope for is to catch up and continue to use their platforms to push their services. Which is what it comes down to.

Leo Dion (host): Yep. Yeah, and we know, like they've been doing a lot with private cloud compute. They talked about that actually at the server side Swift conference and how that's a big deal. So I'm curious to see how they might let developers plug into that and be able to take

Peter Witham (guest): I think that is the one area where Apple does have a better chance than anybody ~of, going ahead, ~getting ahead of everybody else in the sense of, maybe their, ~I was gonna say ~marketing spin should be, your privacy still comes first.

Leo Dion (host): That has been a big selling point that they've tried to spearhead, ~so it'd be nice to see~

Peter Witham (guest): absolutely. I'd use them, if they'd [00:08:00] have, ~I, ~I was all excited ~to, ~to use these services and that, and like I say, I've not been disappointed with what I got, just that I didn't get everything I was hoping for,

Leo Dion (host): we did talk about Siri, so yeah, I'm not expecting anything outta Siri ~this~

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah. ~Yeah~

iPad
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Leo Dion (host): speaking of, things that they keep trying to fix, iPad OS supposedly is gonna have a redesign this year. ~Yeah, I. Like I, ~I just, I don't know what they're trying to do with the iPad. ~I think I'm not, ~I don't think I'm the target audience for it.

I wish it was what I want it to be, but it just isn't. What's your thoughts on the redesign?

Peter Witham (guest): It really does depend what they mean by redesign for me. ~I,~

Leo Dion (host): they're looking at redesigning everything,

Peter Witham (guest): yeah, there's the visual

Leo Dion (host): to go with a vision ~Perel look everywhere.~

Peter Witham (guest): And, ~and ~like with everything Apple, usually when they, redesign these things, ~I. ~It's nice, I like it. It is still something they're very good at as far as redesigning, iPad os [00:09:00] functionally, I use my iPad every day.

~I don't, yes, ~of course I'm a developer, ~right? ~It's not a replacement for my Mac and that is not anything I expected it to be ~in that department. ~But the one thing ~for me ~that greatly disappoints me is every time I plug in an external display to my iPad and it's okay, I got another big iPad on the screen.

What value is that to me? And a lot of that does fall, I think, to developers of third party apps because it depends how they use that experience. The I'm not gonna name and shame or anything like that, but there are some that are like, Hey, you tried. It's pretty good. And there are others that are.

~Frankly, a ~pretty terrible, so I don't need a big iPad display, so I guess for me, I need,

Leo Dion (host): ~do you~ what do you use your iPad for?

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah, engineering manager by trade is my thing. So it's a lot of the management type things, ~things like that, ~classic example is, the web browsers open a lot, ~right?~

And it's handy, I'm [00:10:00] one of those unfortunate people. I have to use teams every day and, greatly

Leo Dion (host): Yeah. Welcome to

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah. So it's great, ~you know what, ~let iPad handle teams and Outlook and all that stuff, right?

Leo Dion (host): That's a good idea.

Peter Witham (guest): That's what that's for. Primarily, and it's because I'm used to full screen apps at this point.

That's cool. But I'd like windowed apps when I plug in external display,

Leo Dion (host): I think like for me, what burns me out about the iPad is just like. You have to have the app in the foreground. Like copy and pasting between stuff is really hard. Like compared with the ability I have to use my mouse and be able to drag stuff around on the Mac. Like I just lose a lot of

Peter Witham (guest): ~yeah, no, exactly. ~That's,

Leo Dion (host): it makes it really difficult.

Peter Witham (guest): that's why I want multiple windows, like true multitasking, which I know isn't, it depends how you want to interpret. What multitasking is. To me, multitasking is, like you said, multiple [00:11:00] windows. It, it's the Mac experience for me. The you hit on a really good example of pane, actually.

The, the copy and the paste, and that kind of feels like stage manager, that thing that I never use. And immediately turn off on everything was isn't this just a fancy clipboard? Because it feels like that,

Leo Dion (host): ~so there was a rumor about being able to do more stuff on the iPhone. ~So I bought myself one of these portable monitors.

Peter Witham (guest): Oh, how do

Leo Dion (host): you seen these before?

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

Leo Dion (host): 50 bucks, at Best Buy. And I was like, ~okay, ~let's see what happens when I hook this up to my iPhone. ~And I was like, trying to do it in portrait.~

You can't even do it in portrait mode, even though the iPhone is portrait, it displays it like portrait, but in the middle of the landscape display. ~And so ~it only works if the iPhone is in landscape and then it fills up the screen. 'cause it's oh, I wonder if I could take my iPhone to a coffee shop with a display and a keyboard and just start writing.

I was just curious and yeah, ~it was like, ~it's like stuff like ~that's just ~those paper cuts that like,

Peter Witham (guest): [00:12:00] yeah. ~And~

Leo Dion (host): Make the experience

Peter Witham (guest): ~It's funny because~ I had read these reports about, ~oh, this, ~these possible enhancements to using an external display. And I got excited too. I'm like. Oh, great. 'cause I remember years ago, I can't think of who made it, maybe it was Motorola, there was that phone that you could put in the back of a dock.

It was like the Nintendo Switch thing. You put the phone in and then boom, you got a computer. So I was like, if I could do that'd be great. But yeah, you nail the problem, which is okay, there's always something that makes it not work. And I get it. It's not necessarily Apple's fault, but it is because with these huge phones,

Leo Dion (host): it's not a priority.

Peter Witham (guest): Of all the apps that I can think of that I can use in landscape mode, fraction of them, and certainly not the home screen. My gosh, I used to love having my iPhone in landscape mode. ~When you could do landscape ~

Leo Dion (host): I remember that.

Peter Witham (guest): ~the phone bigger when you took it away. ~What's the deal?

Yeah.

New Version Numbering and New Design
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Leo Dion (host): I was gonna say something, but of course I forgot. ~Yeah, I just, ~I don't know what their plan is for the new design. ~And ~that [00:13:00] goes to, the other big topic I wanted to talk about that I've actually started looking into how to implement this properly in bushel, but we're gonna get possibly year based version numbers, which I find interesting.

It's a little bit odd to do that for Gear 20. 26. But, the idea would be is that this stepped WC everything is gonna be version 26 for next year. ~And ~there might even be a rumor that they might do that for the iPhones this year. We'll see. I think the iPhone more than the OSS need to. It's weird at this point going with 17, 18, 19.

~It's stupid, but ~yeah, what do you think of that?

Peter Witham (guest): This came up pretty recently, right? And immediately I thought, okay, this is a good idea. And then I was like, oh, but that means we will miss out on the iPhone 20. And doesn't that just have a nice ring to it? We had the iPhone X, the iPhone 10, whichever camp you [00:14:00] want to be in.

Leo Dion (host): We also missed out on iPhone

Peter Witham (guest): Oh yeah, that's true. ~Yeah. ~So it's like what, it's like they don't want to commit to these wonderfully magical numbers, but I'm actually in favor of the idea of the year because, like so many of the tools, we use and ~that ~now use the year number. But it does, you're right in that it also struck me, this doesn't really work, it's because the way the cycles work, here we are in 2025, dub DC just around the corner. We are gonna get the new versions. We all know this, right? We're gonna call 'em 26 'cause we'll get them in the fall. Okay. That does that. That's okay. That kind of makes sense. 'cause we know we're getting to see it way ahead of time.

But ~from ~the perspective of the hardware, ~it, ~it feels a little bit like car model years, right?

Leo Dion (host): Oh, that's exactly what they're going for. ~Yeah. ~The idea would be is that anything but the budget phone would be for the next year, and then the budget [00:15:00] phone, like the 16 E right. Would've been the 25

Peter Witham (guest): yeah, exactly. And so I think it's, I think I'm okay with it, but we'll see how it plays out. ~It, ~what they need to do, and I know I've said ~this, I think I say ~this every year, but what they need to do is just not have so many versions of everything, right?

~So that. ~Consumers can keep it simple. I want the iPhone 26, I want the iPad 26 in size X. ~Right? I don't, ~you and I have spoken about this before. It's no longer that simple thing of I want an iPad of one of these two sizes. I want an iPhone of one of the, ~it's so ~by simplifying the numbers, you've not simplified the actual problem

Leo Dion (host): ~do you think, okay, so this side question, do you think we're going to see hints at and, because usually this is what happens, right? Is you get hints of hardware. ~Do you think we'll get hints of a foldable phone in our Swift UI code?

Peter Witham (guest): I hope so. And the reason I say that is because I think to us the developer community. We wouldn't be surprised as far as we are concerned, it's a done deal at some point. So we won't be shocked or surprised. [00:16:00] It'll just be, ah, there it is. And sometimes I do wonder if companies Apple, in this case put those little things in there for people to find, to see what the reaction is.

Oh, okay. Should we do that? Because like we were saying earlier about everything else, if Apple does a foldable, it better be the Apple we used to know and love, where it's like you have made one better than everybody else. Because, along with that, they're gonna charge more for it.

~No, ~no question.

And

Leo Dion (host): it's gonna be ~super~

Peter Witham (guest): ~And ~I would be a what? I think that's the thing is would I use one. Probably I probably wouldn't. 'cause I love my iPhone 15. I went down from the max to the, to just the pro,

Leo Dion (host): Okay.

Peter Witham (guest): I think for me was one of the best decisions, was like, this is fantastic, this is what I should have done.

So I don't want to foldable, but I think it'll be in there. I think we'll have traces of some mystery [00:17:00] hardware that will clearly be the foldable. Just like we've said before when they said, stop focusing on actual physical screen sizes,

Leo Dion (host): Yeah.

Peter Witham (guest): What do you think? ~Do you think, we'll, ~do you think we're years away

Leo Dion (host): What would that ~even ~look like?

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah. It's so hard, right? Because all the mockups that everybody does for these things is always the typical not thinking like Apple, oh, let's just take two iPhones and sandwich them together, ~and we flip them~

Leo Dion (host): Apple will either figure out the crease problem or they'll work around the crease problem, which is the Apple way, right? Where it's oh yeah, we can't have see-through glasses. Let's put a screen on the outside to show your fake face. Or, oh, we can't get rid of a notch, so let's just make it an island and have a little widget at there.

~You know how Apple~

Peter Witham (guest): ~yeah. ~

Leo Dion (host): So like I feel ~like, ~okay, what are they gonna do with the crease in a creative way that

Peter Witham (guest): right.

Leo Dion (host): the

Peter Witham (guest): ~I thought, ~I thought about this and I was like, okay. ~Yeah. I don't~ I've just never liked this idea of a crease that's like a fold, that actual crease on the Samsung about where it is.

Leo Dion (host): Have you looked at an actual foldable

Peter Witham (guest): ~never actually physically held one. I have no doubt that it works really well, but it doesn't feel Apple.~

I feel like they [00:18:00] could oh, apple will be, is they, if anyone could make a seamless screen that just. It looks like it snaps together, it would be them. But maybe they can make a dynamic island that runs all the way along that middle piece that's thin.

Leo Dion (host): Or something like

Peter Witham (guest): And because, ~'cause ~I was thinking the other day, I was like, okay, clearly I'm not Apple, but what's an Apples way and an Apish way is have it fold the other way so that the screens are on the outside and that crease could become a magic island that I can read when my phone is laying flat ~on the, like I get my notification on there.~

Do you know what I mean?

Leo Dion (host): Yep. ~Yeah, I do know what you mean.~

Peter Witham (guest): if you thought of this already and that's what you're doing, I didn't steal the plans. ~And if you haven't,~

Leo Dion (host): No, they should

Peter Witham (guest): ~was gonna say, ~if they haven't thought of it, hey gi, gimme a call.

Leo Dion (host): We'll put

Peter Witham (guest): yeah. I'll say if I just solved the problem, ~Hey, ~it's all right.

I'll just take 1% of anything,

Leo Dion (host): did you, so ~you said ~you do some Android,

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

Leo Dion (host): did you watch any of Google

Peter Witham (guest): I didn't watch it, but I have read ~and ~I gotta [00:19:00] say, for me, I was like, ~Ooh, gay giggle cut that. Yeah. ~Google, I think may have a better year than Apple right now, but ~a ~again, assuming they can deliver the magic, whoever delivers the magic's gonna get it. But certainly it feels like all the right promises are there from Google.

Love more, hate them. Just Apple right now. ~I'm ~feel like, Google. Yeah, they're so smart to have their conference just before. Because they can say even if they, accidentally now what Apple's gonna announce, they can still say we did it first, so I'm excited for what Google's doing this year. ~Yeah, for sure. Don't get me wrong, ~I don't wanna be a full-time Android developer. No offense to anybody. It's not my thing.

Swift Everywhere
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Peter Witham (guest): I'm a Swift

Leo Dion (host): if you do want to be a full-time manager or a developer, you skip tools. That way you can

Peter Witham (guest): Oh yeah. ~And,~

Leo Dion (host): a previous

Peter Witham (guest): Aren't those guys great? They are doing such a phenomenal job. And I know folks that have used the Skip tools and of course, like you say, you've interviewed them. I've interviewed them. I really think that they have a great solution and that is [00:20:00] probably the

Leo Dion (host): and I'm really excited to see now we have the ecosystem steering committee.

Peter Witham (guest): That's another smart thing, right? ~Let's, ~swift has not been pushed in.

In the sense of realizing it's available for other platforms especially embedded stuff. Like folks like

Leo Dion (host): I don't know if you follow the Edge OS stuff

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

Leo Dion (host): And things like that.

Peter Witham (guest): 'Cause hey, if I could write, and I often say this with the folks that I hang out with, if I could write Swift as my solution anywhere for anything, you better believe that's what I do.

I just don't believe in having to jump through hoops to make it work, which is why those, you're saying about the SKIP tools, it's great, you've solved my pain point. Well done.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah. So one thing I wanted to mention that we talked about version numbers is ~I am, ~I feel like the yearly cycle is ~a weird it's ~weird, I don't know how to put it, but I get it, it's a marketing thing, but at the same time what,

Peter Witham (guest): Does it? ~Yeah I was gonna~

Leo Dion (host): and what I also feel like we're pushing features sometimes [00:21:00] that nobody wants.

Peter Witham (guest): An unfair

Leo Dion (host): and it's like just to have something to show off for the new model, blah, blah, blah. And yeah, but you guys haven't fixed like all these issues on the previous os. ~You know what I~

Peter Witham (guest): And I think, two thoughts on that is yeah you're putting an undue pressure on yourself. Oh, it's that time of year again, people are gonna expect new hardware, people are gonna expect the new OSS in WWDC, knowing that they won't be available. But also, like we said, last year, they still had most of the year.

~To get it right and didn't for whatever reasons. But I think that this is also, I guess I gotta say it, ~this is part of the other bigger problem. You have folks that are driving everything based on the money side of the equation. And you've created this artificial enterprise of once a year, twice a year you do this as opposed to ship it when it's ready.

~Which is what it used to be. And I think that~

Leo Dion (host): I think these versions need s years. [00:22:00] Like what hap, we had the iPhone s's like we need like iOS what, like 18

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah. ~Or like~

Leo Dion (host): ~SI, ~I don't mean that literally, but like we're doing these every year and like we still have bugs in version four that haven't been

Peter Witham (guest): someone asked me the other day, ~what do I, ~what's the biggest thing you want this year? And ~I, ~it's the same answer I always give, which is, Hey, I love those years when they just truthfully say, nothing major. It's a bug fix year. As developers we're like, fantastic.

Thank you so much. But I get it to all the top level sweet folks. ~It's~

Leo Dion (host): It's the marketing thing, right?

Peter Witham (guest): from fixing bugs. How does that ship a new phone? ~That's the, I'll~

Leo Dion (host): But you do lose customers if you don't fix bug. That's the problem that

Future of the iPhone
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Peter Witham (guest): until now. Because I think that's the thing is the competition has. Never been as fierce as it is now. And people, ~I think we have this, and maybe we don't want to go there in the conversation yet, in which case just say, but ~we are reaching a tipping point where things are now so expensive [00:23:00] that you folks are now saying, you gotta give me a reason to buy it. I'm not just gonna get, but it's a new iPhone.

Okay, take my money. It's a new iPad. Take my money right now, because of lots of situations. It's, why do I have to get it? And you've gotta give me that new shiny, even this thing of, it's got a better camera. I don't think it works as, to sell it like it used to. Do. If you think about it like content creators like you and myself, do we buy a new $1,100 camera every year? I'm sure some folks do, but ~I'm an avid photographer and ~I don't,

Leo Dion (host): right.

Peter Witham (guest): and I think the average consumer now is like starting to realize how expensive these things are and what you get for it. So I don't think the yearly cycle necessarily works anymore. It does it, and in the, in that sense, like you say, I [00:24:00] agree.

Give me a, an on off cycle for bug fixes In software, I would be more inclined to buy hardware. If you gave me a two year cycle, wouldn't feel so bad and I'd have paid off the other one,

Leo Dion (host): ~I mean it's like, how do I put this? Like ~I think the iPhone just, there isn't gonna be that much more innovation in the smartphone. ~It's just not gonna happen folder. ~Not having said that, I do think it's not a device that's gonna go away anytime soon. ~I just don't like, it's not I don't know, like ~when the smartphone came out, I don't think.

Sales of computers went down. I just think more people had access to technology ~w ~with the smartphone. ~I don't if somebody could correct me on that, feel free. But ~AI is not gonna take away the smartphone. ~I'm sorry, Sam Altman and Johnny A I've, it's not gonna happen.~

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah, you don't want the

Leo Dion (host): having a screen. We want a screen, we want something we can look at regardless of whether there's AI behind it

Peter Witham (guest): look at the ipo, the iPod. That was in theory, a great idea with no screen, no controls, but. Maybe it was just way too ahead of its time in that. Yeah. ~But have you ever tried to use one, ~

Leo Dion (host): yeah.

Peter Witham (guest): ~And ~Yeah, I'm, at this point, if you tried to get me to use [00:25:00] anything that didn't have some kind of input system, other than it relying on my weird accent voice, it's just not gonna sell on me.

It's just not gonna happen. I think there was a joke someone said the other day about, they stopped the car project because you couldn't, it wasn't recognizing when someone said, please stop, turn left, but I agree with you and I think the phone device is not gonna go away.

~It is so right, that it shouldn't go away. ~But I recognize on the flip side, you only sell so many so often ~and. I don't, haven't seen the latest numbers. I don't remember them. ~I'm sure Apple's doing just fine, but there will be a tipping point. ~Especially if you change prices, and I know we might touch on that, but,~

Leo Dion (host): Yeah. Let's go for it. Do you, when you say Costa iPhone, are you talking specifically about tariffs or was there

Peter Witham (guest): no, I was just talking. ~In general~ I try not to touch on anything close to politics. It's such a dangerous area, but anything that raises the price of the phone, even if it's just, [00:26:00] apple wants to raise the price, I think it's a dangerous gamble ~in the, I don't think fo enough folks already have.~

~Okay, ~let me put it this way. I think a lot of folks. ~It's like the, they, ~when they buy the huge television, right? ~Oh, instead of a loaf of bread, ~hey priorities, right? And so do you need to spend 1200, 1300 plus on a phone every year? ~I'm sure there's other~

Leo Dion (host): ~I don't. ~Do you think people buy ~phone, ~new phones every year still?

Peter Witham (guest): I think there's enough. ~Otherwise they~

Leo Dion (host): Okay.

Peter Witham (guest): this model, working for me, it's usually I won't entertain the idea for at least a couple of years. That's what I do. And even I got a 15 and it's fantastic. I have no reason to change it. But I'm sure there are folks who are just, I want to have the latest one.

There's enough of them. Otherwise they would, it's like those spam phone calls and everyone says, how do people fall for this? Why do they keep doing this? Because enough people. ~F ~do it, that it's worth them to keep doing that. ~And ~I'm not saying the iPhone is spam [00:27:00] folks before you're right in, I'm just saying that whatever it is, there's always enough people to buy into the business model, otherwise the business model wouldn't exist.

I think it's hurt the

Leo Dion (host): I think ~it, ~it's mostly people who ~are, but ~have iPhone elevens and are upgrading. I don't think it's people who are like, I have the 14, I need the 15. ~Okay, I have the 15. Now I need the I think that's much more the case at~

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah. And I think, it's driven by the younger market, younger than ourselves, Leo. If we are, if we're fruitful, I wish I had that kind of disposable income, but then I'd probably be taking vacations if I could do that as well.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah. I don't, yeah, maybe they'll raise the cost of the iPhone. They've already raised the cost of the cheapest iPhone, obviously, so I. That's been the way they've done it. ~I think a bigger problem is the fact that all the 90% of their manufacturing or whatever is in China.~

I think that's the elephant in the room right now, more so than the prices, and I think that's gonna be one of the sticky situations Apple's probably gonna be in for the next rest of the

Peter Witham (guest): yeah, and I, ~for,~

Leo Dion (host): regardless of [00:28:00] politics. It's just, ~it's ~a bad

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah. ~Re remove any kind of politics from the equation. ~At the end of the day, it comes down to it's still the consumer that gets hurt in the middle. Regardless of how you get there, whether a price increase is forced on you, or they choose to, or, any of these companies or, whatever the situation, it's gonna be us that, that suffer, right?

It always is. And I think ~that's, ~that more than anything maybe would drive a slower rate of iPhone sales. ~I don't know. ~I think it definitely gets worse when you talk about whatever the plans are for the vision Pro. You couldn't convince ~people, ~enough people to spend three K on this now. The price of a phone goes up. Surely at some point the price of everything else hardware is gonna go up as well, right?

Leo Dion (host): Yeah ~exactly.~

Peter Witham (guest): And on that note, ~now that I think about it, okay, ~it will affect me when it comes to Max because we're pretty [00:29:00] regular upgrade now Max, right? I got the M four. I love it. But by the time the M

Leo Dion (host): What kind of M four did you

Peter Witham (guest): the M four Pro Mac Mini,

Leo Dion (host): Oh, I really want to get

Peter Witham (guest): ~And not to sales pitch it, but oh my God, it's so good.~

I got the 64 gig version or whatever it is, 48, whatever that top number was. I got that one in the Pro with, a one terabyte drive inside and I'm using the externals.

Leo Dion (host): That's awesome.

Peter Witham (guest): ~I, it's another thing, it's like the phones, right? ~I have no reason to change this thing anytime soon. ~It, ~for what we do as developers and content creators, Xcode will always take some time to compile.

~I, I could jokingly say it reloads xcode a lot quicker when it crashes. But, ~rendering video and things like that, it's gonna keep me

Leo Dion (host): probably ~amazing.~

Peter Witham (guest): ~years. ~And that,

Leo Dion (host): same here with my M1

Peter Witham (guest): there you go. The M ones. So imagine an M four studio, right? You are not gonna need, you might wanna replace that thing every couple of years but in your heart, you don't need to, right?

And I feel that's the same problem as with the phone and everything else. You nailed it when you said from a hardware perspective, [00:30:00] these things are now so mature that we are not. You and I are old enough to remember the early days of I got a 66 megahertz intel chip.

~Whoa you,~

Leo Dion (host): Pre SSDs, pre lc, like CRT monitors. ~Yeah. ~We've come a long way.

Peter Witham (guest): ~are like, oh my gosh, what we have now. ~But that goes back to, like you said, with that phone in my pocket, I got more power in my pocket than I ever dreamed I would.

Vision Pro
---

Leo Dion (host): ~Let's see, what else do we got? ~What are we gonna see with Vision Pro? Like where can they possibly go with that device? You didn't get one, did you?

Okay. ~Have you tried the demo?~

Peter Witham (guest): have not tried the demo. Here's the reason why I'll be completely transparent with the audience. ~Although anybody that knows me, they're like, yeah, we know why. ~Because I know if I try one, that's it. I'm done.

Leo Dion (host): Oh, you

Peter Witham (guest): ~I'm like, ~I'm done. Take my money. And

Leo Dion (host): Wow.

Peter Witham (guest): why I haven't, because I know the benefits for me, the huge benefit would be the one that a lot of folks, mention, Tim Mitra, for example, he's always saying about the huge desktop.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. If I had that, I'd be [00:31:00] set, but I also know that enough people say about the weight, it's oh, that's why I don't have one. Not to mention that I can't justify the cost, but I did say to myself, oh, V two might be a thing, but. I think part of the question maybe you're asking is there will be a V two, right?

Leo Dion (host): Or what are they gonna do with the V two to actually sell it? The big part of the problem, obviously, is that the developers did not flock to it like they thought they would, ~and. There's a thousand paper. ~I feel like with that product, what pushes me away is, besides the lack of apps, is the the thousands of paper cuts.

I feel like I'd use it and be like, oh, but ~this is a problem. ~This is a problem. This is a problem. This is a problem. It's just after all, I'm just gonna be like, I don't want to use this. And we've heard reports of people who've owned them and just left them in their drawer because they're just like, I'm sick and tired of dealing

Peter Witham (guest): I'd love to know the percentage of people, and I hope it's [00:32:00] low, but if they're honest, they said. I'm still using it to feel like I got my money's worth out of it. And I know that be because I know there were folks ~that, ~use it to watch, essentially like an infinite big screen.

And I bet that's amazing. That's another reason why yeah, if I was to see the latest mission Impossible on one of those, and my whole room is a screen, I'm gonna feel like it's the best thing I ever bought. ~I'm not gonna deny it, ~

Leo Dion (host): exactly. ~Exactly.~

Peter Witham (guest): so there is that. But I also know Jeff, the co-host on the compulsory of podcast, he has one.

But I lived through his experience of spending a long time crafting his app. Shout out to Jeff, by the way, buddy. Spent, I watched him spending a long time making his app work exceptionally well. On the Vision Os and then after a while saying, how's that going? And it's what? Why did I bother?

And I get it,

Leo Dion (host): So does he have a vision pro?

Peter Witham (guest): does. ~Yes.~

Leo Dion (host): Does he use

Peter Witham (guest): He says he does. ~Yeah. ~And I believe him.

Leo Dion (host): What does he use it [00:33:00] for?

Peter Witham (guest): yeah. That was the thing. I didn't, it was like, okay, I'll believe you. I won't ask too many questions, ~but ~we would, ~we, we'll ~have you come on the podcast against him.

You can ask him. 'Cause I feel like there will be a great conversation between the two of you about the Vision Pro,

Leo Dion (host): I'd ~just ~be curious like what?

Peter Witham (guest): But he does, I think, for him~ not ~to speak on his behalf, but obviously as a developer, he spent a lot of time with his app and felt like.

Wow, what a waste of time that was, ~yeah~ and again, folks, I'm just interpreting what he said. ~I'm not speaking on his behalf, but ~it wasn't worth the development time, and he's not the only one I've heard that from. And I think, like you are saying, that's been the thing ~and the, ~to touch on it, the death by a thousand cuts.

Yeah. As we know with all Apple devices, right? Let's be honest, whether Apple likes it or not, it's the third party apps that make or break it, it made the iPhone, right? Not to say that the iPhone's not a fantastic phone, but it didn't really become useful to like myself until great, now I got apps on it, right?

And that's what [00:34:00] the Vision Pro clearly needs as well. But I don't blame developers if they took the stance of, you know what Apple, we all know you don't like us developers. You really never give us. The attention because we are not, we don't put the money in your pocket in that sense. ~I would argue with so many.~

Yes, we do. Because look at the app store, right? And Apple makes huge amount of money from services. That's a whole other conversation. But why would I help Apple when I feel like they're not really doing a whole lot to help me except just lie in their pockets with my hard work? You know what I mean?

Leo Dion (host): ~And~

Peter Witham (guest): yeah. ~I couldn't, there's no way I could convince anybody. ~I know, even diehard developers go spend a three grand on a vision pro.

Leo Dion (host): right,

Peter Witham (guest): response

Leo Dion (host): or

Peter Witham (guest): like, mine, I'll, I'd rather have spent three grand on a phenomenal Mac mini, which is what I did. And love this thing for years.

The Vision Pro is a V one, [00:35:00] assuming. It's still the plan. It'll be redundant at some point year or next year, but my Mac mini lives on, right?

Leo Dion (host): Exactly. That's the way I would look at it. I'd rather spend money on a Mac than on a vision pro. 'cause I know I'd use it ~pretty~

Peter Witham (guest): yeah. Or for that matter, ~the, I like we say, ~that's ~two, two, ~two plus iPhones.

Leo Dion (host): Exactly.

Peter Witham (guest): I know for yourself and like in my household, we are two plus iPhone families, right? Most people are, I think at this point, if you've got one, you've got more than one. And so great, I'll upgrade all of those this year.

~Love that to death. And~ not all have to sit in the living room with headsets on,

App Store
---

Leo Dion (host): yeah. ~So last thing I had, do you wanna talk if, ~do you think we're gonna see changes to the app store at

Peter Witham (guest): this is ~arguably,~

Leo Dion (host): of, legal

Peter Witham (guest): yeah, I was gonna say, this is one of the more, I think, interesting areas, right? We've seen so many changes, ~like we've said about so many things, right? ~Over the last year we've seen [00:36:00] so many changes, many of which Europe, no question, have forced the issue. Putting aside whether, I feel that's right or wrong.

There have been changes and there will be more changes because once you open that door, you don't close it again, right? The US I think has had it better. And some, other countries that are not Europe are still, ~I say ~locked in the sense that they are locked in on these platforms.

But I also think if, let's say the situation arose and ~say, let's say ~take the Asian and US markets, right? If they were to suddenly be forced to open up third party app stores, I don't think it would be a good id. It wouldn't be a good experience. ~It, ~for better or worse. And you know me, the audience knows me.

I'm all for, hey, fair [00:37:00] competition is a good thing, right? But I also think security and privacy is more important. Now I get it. You could argue that. Okay, privacy wise, apple still has my data and they might be the nice people in the room. Right now we don't know that's it in the future. I'm not claiming it is~ but ~I do value not having to worry that if an app makes it on my phone or my iPad, and I'm not including the Mac very specifically there, if it makes it on my iPhone or my iPad, there's a better than average chance. I'm good. Yes, there are still some problems, things get through, but it's as someone who works on multiple platforms as a job, I can honestly say, it is infinitely worse on Android.

Leo Dion (host): Is it really~ ~

Peter Witham (guest): ~and I, ~

Leo Dion (host): i.

Peter Witham (guest): I had an Android phone and I wanted to really love it because like the, one of the [00:38:00] test phones I've got now is a Samsung and it's beautiful. The screen, the cur, it's just fantastic. It's if I didn't have an iPhone, this is what I have. But. Then I think about the app stores, and then I think about, Android platform and that.

So yeah, ~there, ~there will be changes to the app stores. I think ~it's gonna, ~apple will always claim it's gonna hurt them, right? You're cutting off, we are bleeding to death. Okay. Apple, quit it. No one's gonna believe that you're bleeding to death anytime soon. But they do have a good argument, Hey, this way the users feel more confident. I can't argue with that. I think that's a valid argument right there. But what do you think from like a app builder's perspective, do you think it'll get better or worse for us?

Leo Dion (host): I think most people are gonna stick with Apple. ~I, so I guess ~as somebody who only is on Apple, I would say I don't trust the app store as a consumer. I just think there's a lot of sketchy [00:39:00] apps, on the app store, so I don't even feel like I'm paying for decent security. It sounds like you have more experience on Android, so maybe I'm mistaken.

So maybe we could get more premium apps, stores that ~like ~are better quality apps and stuff. I don't know. But yeah it's a unfortunate situation we're in and how we got here as far as like they've been pressed and pressed and have just. Que they just continue to squeeze and think they can get more out of it.

Peter Witham (guest): I do.

Leo Dion (host): and ~I don't, ~I think the iPhone's been hurt by it,

Peter Witham (guest): Oh, absolutely I do. And I do say that I think for. Many different reasons. Like you said, death by a thousand cuts. I jokingly say it, but I also believe too, welcome to Microsoft of the nineties folks. You, once you dominate a market, it's not the question of whether you earned that success or not.

'cause [00:40:00] hey I think they did. I think Apple deserves everything they got because they came up with the solutions to problems we didn't know we had. But when we realized we did, wow. Did it turn the world around for everybody, right? Yes, of course. I'm specifically talking about the iPhone here, right?

And not, I'm not talking about whether I think it's right or wrong. It did turn everything around for everybody, right? Not everybody had a cell phone back when they were, super simple phones and everybody, most people do now. And so it's opened up people around the world to the world, which is nothing but a good thing.

But with that inevitably becomes okay, but now you think that we should just accept everything you do. And that's acceptable to a certain point until they, in this case, apple. And that's why I say welcome to Microsoft of the [00:41:00] nineties, until you start to abuse that and you start to, Apple's always believed its own hype, but now it really believes it's a reality.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

Leo Dion (host): ~I ~I don't know, I'm a bit cynical about it just 'cause from what I've seen, the apps that are the big ones on the app store tend to be doom scrolling video apps or like gambling apps. And that's all I see. As far as what are the big hits? So it's great, you've got addictive apps, but like at the same time what happened to the really, I don't know, maybe it's just the market has changed, but it just seems like those are the hits and like your productivity app, or, ~I don't know, like ~more creative games seem to be getting squeezed outta the market.

Peter Witham (guest): And I think I put a lot of that blame on frankly, the unpredictable nature of App store [00:42:00] review. ~If I'm not saying. And to be clear, I'm not saying, oh, if we've got, let's just pick one. ~If we've got 10 Tetris gloss, that is all that should be allowed on the store is we have got the maximum amount of Tetris glos.

I'm not saying that, because the 11th one could be groundbreaking, pivotal in some way, but what I am saying is it doesn't feel like the rules for the app store. And I know we as developers I know I'm preaching to the choir. The rules seem to apply one way for some folks, one way for another set of folks, and then we can't help but touch upon this, if you are one of those companies that Apple's decided they've got a beef with you, it's a third set of rules and we will make out that to let you in.

We'll, just. Kill Apple as a company, of which none of us believe it. But it doesn't matter if you've got enough lawyers,

Leo Dion (host): yeah. ~What like ~I do think that the biggest problem is just the financial [00:43:00] structure of how the app store was set up. This is what we've ended up with, where we have games looking for whales and things like that more than anything else. And I think that's really ~like ~where the problem has reared its head and like you said, app store review, et cetera.

~It's and ~it's to Apple's advantage, right? That they make a ton of money

Peter Witham (guest): Of course. And I don't fault them for that. ~I'm one of those folks that ~I think Apple deserves a percentage of sales because they are doing an awful lot for us. Even if it doesn't feel like it, anyone like us who's ever put an app in the app store suddenly appreciates I had to do zero clever marketing to have a nice page in the app store.

~I got these other, there, ~there are so many useful things. They deserve something for that. They're hosting this stuff. ~I think they, ~what does that percentage, what should it be? I don't know. But they deserve something. But they don't, if I'm giving them something, they shouldn't be able to dictate all the rules to me.

As [00:44:00] a someone putting an app in, I should follow the guidelines that I agreed to and laid out and they should be clear for me to understand so that if you accept it or reject it. It's okay, I get it. I pushed too far. Look at the amount of, you said it yourself. Look at the amount of adverts that you see for things famously, certain games that didn't exist, that appeared in adverts and then Hey, we actually made a game of this now.

That is Apple's fault. 'cause

They're the gatekeepers of what gets in and what gets out. ~That's what they, ~that's why they tell us their monopoly is a good thing. And yet they don't demonstrate using that monopoly for the right reasons to,

Leo Dion (host): ~And also like I, I'm agreeing, like ~I think this, I don't care about the 30% cut, whatever it

Peter Witham (guest): If I, it's like arguing about the $90 or whatever it is, $99 a year to be in the developer program.

Leo Dion (host): right.

Peter Witham (guest): Hey, if you're not making $99 a year, I. I'll be transparent, right? I have a full-time day job. [00:45:00] I don't make enough from the app store to cover my yearly developer, cost. But that's not why I am doing it.

But if I was doing it, I would take it serious enough. ~The 90 or a hundred dollars wouldn't bother me because ~I would feel like at that point I'm doing something wrong.

Peter and Game Development
---

Leo Dion (host): So before we close out, I wanted to ask you, what have you been working on lately?

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah. So over the past year in particular, I have been doing a lot more game development. ~For those of you keeping checkout there. ~I actually did release like my Enders hurdles game, which was just a fun, Hey, could we make SpriteKit work? That then ended up as a, oh dang, we got a real game. I finally released it.

I moved away from SpriteKit, and went into like goodo. So I did finally release it on multiple platforms because everybody wanted me to. ~So thanks peer pressure. ~But I have been doing a lot of game development because it's my, when you do mobile apps. Every day as a job. At some point you're like, I don't wanna do mobile app in the evening necessarily every night.

So I do game [00:46:00] development because I'm free to do whatever I want and it doesn't matter if I ship it or not. ~It's just fun, ~

Leo Dion (host): so you're talking about Gau and Sprite kit. Explain to me the differences

Peter Witham (guest): For those, Sprite kit is Apple's, I call it Apple's Gaming 2D technology. And then of course there's various other ones for 3D ~and funnily enough, ~this is everybody kept pushing me like, you should make this for Vision Pro. And I'm like, what's the point? Just to circle it back.

~But~ it's their 2D gaming technology and it is a lot harder to work with than it should be because it's not a game. Engine it is more, hey, if you wanna make a game engine with it, you can. So you've gotta do all that work, right? But if you look at others like, there are three that I use, Gado, unity and Unreal Engine.

They are pre-built engines. I just have to go make my thing right. And interestingly doing Gadot has made me [00:47:00] learn, GD script, which is very close to working with Ruby and things like that. And so it's huh, in fact, Jeff and I did a compiled Swift episode recently where we were talking about you go do something else and you find it has side benefits ~to, ~to your mainstream work, right?

And so that's what happened there. Not Sprite Kit turned out not to be my thing because it was taking too long to do basic things. And that's a whole other subject about how Apples. Not embracing gaming platforms the way they would like you to think they are. I'll say it, I say it every time, so apologies.

Apple, just by Unity already and make Swift the main programming language, and I will back you a thousand percent.

Leo Dion (host): So Gau is a different engine,

Peter Witham (guest): engine, ~open source.~

Leo Dion (host): but you can use Swift in it.

Peter Witham (guest): ~c ~you can, it's not the main language, but there are some very smart folks out there. I'll find the link. We'll put the link in the show notes.

~There's a~ you can use Swift by way of a bridge. ~And~ the cohost ~again ~on Compulsive [00:48:00] podcast, Jeff, he actually embraced this. ~And ~I tried to embrace it, but it got to that thing of I was doing too much work to get Swift working before I actually made anything. And that to me is always the sign that something's wrong.

Leo Dion (host): Okay.

Peter Witham (guest): ~I it, ~it's really good. It's coming along in leaps and bounds. There have been conference talks about it. Apologies. I can't remember the gentleman's name off hand. Who did it. We'll find it for the links. ~It's not terrible. ~It's really good. And in fact, there's also ~a good~ an iPad app now that you can use to make cado,

Leo Dion (host): Oh, that's

Peter Witham (guest): ~which is great.~

You mean I can code them on the iPad? Interesting. Not really something I want, but interesting nonetheless. But that's what I wanna see. I wanna see Swift taken seriously in these other arenas, right? Game development in particular, because yeah, I can type swift a lot quicker than learning another language, right? So that's what I've been working on a lot lately. I still [00:49:00] have apps. I've got like my JobFinder Tracker app, which is, swift and Swift data and, all the in,

Leo Dion (host): what platform.

Peter Witham (guest): it's on iOS ~Prime. iOS is the primary platform for it.~

Leo Dion (host): Okay.

Peter Witham (guest): I do wanna make it multi-platform, meaning iPad, a better iPad experience, true native iPad experience and Mac at some point.

I just don't feel it has the core features yet that it needs to have. And so it's kind, that thing of, okay, let's get one platform. Right now I do the interfaces for the others because it uses cloud kit and everything else, so your data goes everywhere. But it's just not the experience I want it to be yet.

Leo Dion (host): Yep. ~That makes~

Peter Witham (guest): And I will say I haven't migrated it to Swift six 'cause I'm a little afraid.

Leo Dion (host): ~Yeah, I would Ima yeah. F reasonably I agree. ~Peter, thank you so much for coming on. Sorry you won't be in California this year, but one of these years. I'll have to get you

Peter Witham (guest): I almost made it to deep Dish this year, except for last minute, work commitments almost made it, but yes. [00:50:00] Yeah. Thank you, Leo. ~I, ~we will make it buddy. We will make it and be in the same location at some point. It will happen, ~that, ~that would be fantastic. But as always, thank you for having me back on the show.

It's always a pleasure. We always have so much to talk about when we get together and, just thoroughly enjoy it. It's always interesting, so thank you.

Leo Dion (host): And we'll put links to you and your compile swift stuff and live streams, et cetera, in the show notes. So be sure to check that out. Like I said, I will be, doing a special recording Monday, June 9th to talk about the events of the first day at dubbed up, special 200 episode at Community Kit. I'll have a link to preserve your spot.

You do have to reserve your spot free. So go check that out. I'll be doing a panel at one more thing. On Tuesday, I'm ~doing~ gonna be showcasing bushel at the Indie Fair Community Kit. So definitely check that out. Bushel is gonna be on sale, till the [00:51:00] 23rd. ~So ~we just released Bushel two point 10, 2.10, 2.1 0.0.

So check that out. We added a menu bar, we redid the snapshot interface. It's really great. ~So ~if you're gonna test out Mac Os. 26, you'll definitely want to, ~grab~ grab a copy of bushel and give it a try. ~And then ~you get 50% off if you subscribe, for your yearly subscriptions. So take a look at that.

I'll have links to all that stuff. And the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, please and subscribe and post a review, in your podcast player. Consider joining our Patreon to get these episodes early and also subscribe to our newsletter. Alright, that's it. We'll see you, everybody in California.

Talk to you later. [00:52:00] [00:53:00] [00:54:00] [00:55:00] [00:56:00] [00:57:00] [00:58:00] [00:59:00] [01:00:00] [01:01:00] Bye.